ficwize | My Thoughts on Marvel Divas

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My Thoughts on Marvel Divas

likeadeuce asked me to explain why I'm enjoying this story. So, that's what this post is about - and let me just start out by saying a few things.

1. I didn't intend to buy it or read it. But then I started thinking about how few comic books really featured women, so I read the first issue in the store. Then I read the second issue right afterward.

2. I still haven't bought it and likely won't.

3. I am 100% unfamiliar with any of these characters. I have NO idea whether or not the stories are authentic or OOC. I have no history, no background info, nothing at all. I am literally judging this story based on this story alone.

4. I got the Sex and the City reference without reading any interviews, a few of which I've since read. I enjoyed Sex and the City, but I didn't love it. My thoughts on Divas thus far are about the same.

5. My personal background, which is relevant to my thoughts, is that I'm a single 30 year old lawyer. There are more details that some of you know, but that's the gist of it. And that should explain why this comic is relevant to my interests, when you read my thoughts below.

First, an observation that I think will likely offend some people, but I'm going to say it anyway. I find that a lot of people who criticize women's literature (and thereby women's story lines in other things) criticize them for including too many romantic story lines. They don't like the fact that women never sem to carry a story on their own without it involving men in some way.

I think this is a valid criticism. But I don't understand why, after that criticism is made, whatever work under discussion is somehow devalued. I"m 30 years old and I went to a women's college, and believe me, I work and fight in a man's world. And still, relationships, marriage, babies, boyfriends, etc. come up all the time, in every friendship I have with every woman I know. (It also comes up with all the men I know, too. Perhaps it should play bigger roles in male-centric fiction to make that more true to life.)

So the fact that this comic is about four women who share a common bond in that they were/are/might be heroes and deals in large part with their love lives doesn't bother me and I don't find it degrading.

Instead, I find it fascinating. It's asking the same question every woman I've ever met asks: Is it possible to have it all?

The four characters, whom I barely know by name, are all dealing with different major points in their life, but they share something in common with each other - and with me. They worry about work - is it taking too much of their life, will their past decisions haunt them, have they made wrong decisions about careers, have they put themselves in a corner?

They worry about health - and as someone without insurance who has been struggling a lot this year with health problems, I can relate. Do I need to go to the doctor, what if it's bad news, what do I do then, who is going to help me, am I strong enough to bear it if it's the worst, am I doing something to make myself sick, am I being irresponsible?

They worry about relationship - what do I do when my bad ex shows up, if I'm attracted to this man and sleep with him without wanting a relationship, does that make me a slut, are my friends judging me, will potential employers judge me if they find out, am I making a mistake by being interested, am I making a mistake by being uninterested?

They worry about finances - and good God is that hitting close to home right now. Am I financially stable, what do I need to do to make myself financially stable, is my credit good, do I buy property, do I go into business for myself, do I keep struggling to find a job somewhere else, do I change fields altogether?

I have heard criticisms that the cancer storyline is trite and overdone, and I say fie to those people who say that. I dare them to tell someone who has had a friend diagnosed with breast cancer that it's trite or overdone. I dare them to feel that way if they are diagnosed with breast cancer.

And I find the reactions thus far very normal. Anger, second opinions, self-blame, bargaining with the devil/god (maybe not in such a literal way, but still).

As far as I can tell, with only half the story and no background to look at, this comic is dealing with a lot of very real women's issues.

Are the characters all making smart decisions? No, but then, looking at my circle of friends (and in the mirror), I can safely say that's fairly realistic, too.

At the end of the day, I simply don't find stories about women claiming their sexuality while still having outside lives to be misogynistic. And I'm not saying that anyone reading this thinks that - but according to wikipedia, that was a criticism made of the author. Why shouldn't women want to have sex? Why shouldn't they want to have boyfriends?

And in this case, I really am at a loss. One character is dealing with her ex-husband (who is the son of Satan!???? I missed something there.) showing back up and causing drama. Check. I've seen that happen a lot in my own little world. One woman is agonizing over whether or not she's actually interested in a man who is interested in her after she already slept with him. Oh, yes, I can tick off the women I know who worry about this. And one is dealing with the arrogant, though probably well intentioned, offer of her boyfriend (ex?) to bail her out and give her money to start a business. While I don't know anyone exactly who fits this, I can look at her situation, and look at my own with a friend of mine who is male, and see startling and striking similarities.

So, while I hardly think this book is the best thing I've ever read, I do find it kind of amazing. On many many levels, it addresses things that are relevant to my life, and to the lives of the women that I love and care about.

As an almost afterthought, I'm going to also address the art and the authorship. The art has been criticized for being misogynistic and I'm not 100% I know why. As far as I can see, it really isn't that different from the art of any comic woman heroine - tight uniforms and big breasts. Okay, we get it - all comic book heroes have amazing bodies. But that applies equally to men as to women. It's rare to find female characters not dressed in ridiculous clothes (Brand and Daisy to name a few), but it's equally rare to find male comic heroes not dressed in ridiculous costumes (I *hate* Scott's condom head uniform. I liked it better when he didn't wear that ridiculous head covering. And yellow spandex?? Yeah. Like I said...)

The author, Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa, is doing something that I actually think is fairly rare- he's writing about a gender not his own. I overheard local Atlanta comic book artists discussing writing women once and was appalled at the number of them (mostly men) who said they wouldn't even really try because as men, they would never "get it." In my opinion, that was ridiculous. I'm not a man, and I don't shy away from writing male characters. And when I have received criticism that I write men like a woman would write them, I try and follow up on it to find out what I did wrong and how I could do it better.

My hat is off to Mr. Aguirre-Sacasa for at least being brave enough to try, and in my opinion, not doing a horrible job. Anyway, I welcome comments - even if you do disagree with me. ;)

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Thanks a lot for sharing this!

I can't really say that much about Marvel Divas; I read the first issue and I didn't hate it, but I didn't find it very interesting, either. There wasn't anything in the characters or stories or conflicts that spoke to me at all. I think anybody arguing that the existence of this book is misogynistic is being silly. But I have to say it genuinely bothers me that Marvel hardly puts out any books about female superheroes and when they do they decide to have it be about them NOT being superheroes. That just rubs me the wrong way. I'm not saying that's rational but I'm not reading superhero books because I secretly want to be reading Sex and the City without the sex or the jokes, which is what the first issue felt like.

None of that is to say that I'm not interested in women and their problems, and I don't think people should dismiss a story just for those reasons. It's just not my thing.

It's just not my thing.

Well, there is that. *lol*

I have to say I find the background stories and real life stories of the superheroes far more interesting that the superheroing stuff. That's one of the reasons I'm drawn to fanfiction - primarily it is about the people and not their big fights.

If the book didn't talk about their superheroing at all, I wouldn't like it either, though. But we see these women acting as heroes - fighting skrulls, cleaning up after Katrina, etc.

I think it's an interesting blend. Also, just so I'm clear, I never thought that you were dismissive of this story. After you asked me to talk about it, I went to the internet and was dismayed to find the overwhelming reaction - even before the story came out - was people crying misogyny.

Though 'misogyny' is taking it a little far, I think 'sexism' (which to me is a rather different thing -- as it can mean thoughtless inequity without outright nasty feeling toward women) is at least part of the marketing.

It's not so much that I need the books to be about superheroing as that I'm not holding my breath for 'a book about the domestic lives of male superheroes.' Or, for that matter, a book about a team of female heroes kicking ass.

the cancer storyline is trite and overdone, and I say fie to those people who say that.

I had cancer, and I think it's trite and overdone! And why do female characters *always* get breast cancer? It's only so the writers can look serious and important while saying "breast tee hee" like 12-year-olds.

What I really disliked about the first issue (I haven't and don't intend to read the second) is that the first part of the comic was the central characters being *jealous* of other female superheroes for their fame. They're not Hollywood Z-list celebrities, they're heroes who risk their lives every day to save other people. They work in teams with those other women. It rang wholly untrue, malicious and stupid.

As for the cover art being misogynistic - the interior art is far better - the women aren't shown as powerful, like superhero men in skintight costumes. They all have the exact same (ridiculous) bodytype. They have huge boobs stuck on skinny and not-very-athletic bodies, which might be the case for *one* superhero, but certainly not all of them. Superhero men are a power fantasy - this cover is a Playboy fantasy of "owning" these women.

And I'm definitely with

likeadeuce on the characters being superheroes, but the only book about them is about everything *else* in their lives. Birds of Prey had a lot of these issues discussed, and yet it was always, always in the context of the women as superheroes. Here, it's like that's their "silly little job" that they'll just have until they're married.

Thanks for your thoughts. I think I only recently found out that you had cancer before, only because you were reporting that you don't have it now. Clearly, I wouldn't presume to tell you how you should feel.

I will also say that I'm not sure really why you feel that a cancer story line is trite and over done, though. Granted, I don't read many comics, so I don't have a lot of comparison, but I'm not sure that I know of any other storyline about it.

As for why women characters get breast cancer... I think it's probably because it is a women's issue, primarily. For women in the US (sorry, I don't have more general statistics), 1 out of 8 women will get breast cancer. It is the second most common cancer in women (behind skin) and it is the second mostly deadly cancer for women (behind lung). Only 1% of diagnosed breast cancer in the US is diagnosed in men. Also, experts estimate that 90% of breast cancer are caused by mutations and genetic abnormalities that occur during aging/life.

I'm 30 years old and I've lost one friend to breast cancer. That was 2 years ago, and she left behind a daughter. I've seen women fight this cancer my whole life.

Perhaps I am giving the author the benefit of a doubt that he doesn't deserve, but I think - statistically speaking - breast cancer is the most likely cancer a female character would develop. I really hope that it isn't being used as a joke, and if it were, I would be absolutely furious and feel betrayed as a female reader.

As for your comment that they are jealous of other more powerful characters... I can see that. But I'm not sure that I totally agree with that interpretation. I did notice it, it is one of the things I didn't like honestly, but I have worked with a lot of women that I had no desire whatsoever to socialize with. And, again while I don't read much in the way of other comics, I didn't find the characterizations of Sue Storm or Ororo Munroe to be that far off base. I'm not sure I'd have hung around that party either...

I really don't have much to say in defense of the art. Like I said before, I find all the art somewhat ridiculous, which is why when I find really good art, or interestingly drawn characters, it makes more of an impression than the normal TnA appreciation crap. I will agree, too, that the interior art is better.

I'm afraid I haven't read any Birds of Prey, so alas, I cannot compare. But I mentioned to Deuce above that if the series completely ignored their jobs, then I also wouldn't like it, but I don't feel that it does. And, personally, the behind the scenes of the big superhero comics moments interests me more than the big superhero moments.

I reread the end of Whedon's Astonishing X-men again last night, and I can say without a doubt that Scott's relationship with Emma, Kitty's relationship with Piotr, Brand's relationship with Hank, the friendships between all the characters, the mentorship between Logan and Hisako - all of that interested me far more than the Breakworld.

To me, the background lives makes the moments of true heroism and sacrifice meaningful. I cried all over again. *sheepish*

Now... aren't you on vacation?! *lol* Have fun! And thanks so much for your thoughts. :)

Not speaking for Lilac at all, but to me a storyline is "trite" if it's told exactly the same way almost every time it appears in fiction. When people mock "Lifetime movies" about domestic abuse or teen pregnancy, they don't do it because they think those issues are unimportant but because the perception is that the stories are told in the same way over and over again without any actual insight. And sure, there are plenty of trite action-oriented stories in superhero comics; I like to think I make fun of those too, but in the end if the supervillain fight is like every other supervillain fight, I don't *care* because it's not touching on something that I think deserves to be taken more seriously.

Disease stories CAN be trite in that way (I have absolutely no opinion on this storyline in MD because I only read the first issue and the concept was only introduced at the end). No, there aren't many/any "woman with cancer" storylines in superhero comics but there are plenty of those in other entertainment media, from Lifetime movies to high literary fiction; some of them are great stories, some of them are awful, and on most of them opinions and emotional reactions will differ a lot. I don't *at all* mean to dismiss your reaction to this story, I'm just trying to articulate why some people could see it as trite.

to me a storyline is "trite" if it's told exactly the same way almost every time it appears in fiction

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I'm so sick of this version of the narrative, especially when the writers haven't even bothered to research the right treatment.

But women get lots of other kinds of cancers, too! We don't see women getting skin or lung cancer, we see them getting what male writers/readers think is most dramatic - the "loss" of their appearance and/or femininity. Not loss of life, loss of health or the ongoing feeling of not trusting your own body, but appearance. Appearance changes can certainly be upsetting, but that's all we seem to get in this type of "friends support victim" cancer narrative. I read that in the second issue, they're going to give Firestar chemo and she'll lose her hair - that's not even the right treatment for stage 2, non-metastisised breast cancer, which really makes me think that they don't care about real people with cancer, or about raising awareness. That's what I mean by "trite" - it's following a particular, out-of-date script that has little bearing on actual women's lives and experiences. I'd love to see something realistic, but this isn't it.

Astonishing X-Men is, like Birds of Prey, a wonderful example of what I'm talking about, mixing the superhero job with the character relationships and insights - I also love the behind-the-scenes moments that you list, but "Marvel Divas" is combining female characters with stereotypical "female" concerns and nothing else. I wouldn't be particularly interested in a whole miniseries of, say, Scott working on the plane and not talking to anyone, or Logan drinking beer and watching hockey, either. A good writer can use those stereotypes as a starting point, sure, but it shouldn't be the whole story.

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it seems to me that Romance - which is for the most part, books written and read by women, with at least one woman in the lead role - gets taken the least seriously

I agree. I hadn't really thought of it in these terms before, but I think you're right. And it's interesting, too, that books exploring women's sexuality are most often dismissed.

As far as agency, I have to say that this story seems full of it to me, which is one of the reasons I like it. There are men in this story, but they are very much secondary characters.

I think that it frustrates me to hear criticisms that there aren't enough women represented in comics and then hear equal amounts of criticism that the stories are somehow less valid when they focus on more traditional women's issues. These women are still heroes, they're still out there fighting the good fight, and they're doing it without the safety net of an established hero team.

But, I am prepared to think that it might just be me.

Thanks for you comments and thoughts!

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I definitely want to emphasize that I think the actual book 'Marvel Divas' is better than the marketing of Marvel Divas. I still don't love it but I have a lot less problem with the content of the book than the packaging.

I'm sure it's true that there are people who are genuinely uninterested in women or women's sexuality who dismiss romance as a genre. But my aversion to romance as such is my perception that it's about women who either (a) are not interested in anything but finding the right man and living happily ever after or (b) who are actually interested in other things but learn by the end of the book that what they really should have been looking for the right man and subsequently sacrifice all of their other goals to be with him. It's not that I think there's anything wrong with telling stories about women's lives, it's that *my perception* of a romance narrative is not of something that's actually about women in a positive way, but about how women need men to complete them.

Now I am *sure* that all romance narratives are not like that, and it's probably true this perception comes more from movies than from books that I haven't read since I was a teenager. But I don't have any concept of where I would look to find stories that aren't like that.

Now about Marvel Divas itself, I'm not sure it really even qualifies as a romance -- I'm not sure WHAT it is -- but I think it bears repeating that I'm not upset by what's in this comic but I'm upset that of all the stories Marvel could have chosen to tell about its women, it picked this one.

Primarily, though, I was uninterested in the book because I thought the 4 characters had utterly indistinguishable personalities and didn't talk about anything I found interesting. It was just, to me, not a well-told story. It's just that, because the external fact of the book's publication and marketing bugged me, I'm still thinking about it instead of tossing it and forgetting it as I generally would with a story I didnt' find well-told.

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I didn't mean to take over wizefics journal with this, but if you ever feel like doing a post about romance writers who handle this stuff well, I'd definitely be interested. It's not that I don't want to read stories about contemporary women having everyday problems, it's just that so many of them push the wrong buttons for me. (And neither of us has mentioned this yet, but a lot of the times it's the class issues in these books that drive me off more than anything -- I always seem to read things about about young women from a wealthy families who go to high-profile college and are just *shocked* that they don't get the job, income, and man they want right away.)

I'm really liking Marvel Divas. I thought I would dismiss it,, I thought I wouldn't like it. But I like it -- I *like* talking about relationships. And I like stories in which people talk about relationships. (Witness my love of Chasing Amy.) I could wish that there was more superheroing going on, but, honestly, I can read Ms. Marvel for that.

Marvel Divas fills the kind of fanfic role I used to write -- long, talky stories in which not much happens, and people think a lot about everything EXCEPT how they really feel. (Witness the story I wrote for Deuce's birthday.)

I like this, I'll keep buying it, for a while, at least. I mean, I'm a LOT more excited about the new Batgirl title, but this is fun.

I *like* talking about relationships. And I like stories in which people talk about relationships.

I do too. I find them interesting, because I think that they explain the character motivations, which I find more interesting than their actions.

And I agree - this is fun. It's not epic and it's not transformative, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as the internets might lead someone not reading it to believe.

Thanks for your thoughts!

See my comment above but -- you know, if I had actually liked the characters in this (or been able to distinguish them from each other in any way) I would have been more interested in what they were talking about, whatever it might have been. And that's just down to personal preference.

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My Thoughts on Marvel Divas

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